Which of the popular 1st generation club class ships now freely
available on the market represents the best buy at the moment with the
following in mind.?

1 - I may want to fly club class competition
2 - It will get passed on to my youngsters
3 - in the UK so it will have to go through EASA garbage.


There are a handfull of Cirrus, ASW 15's and Libelles around.

My priority list is something like

Easy to rig
gel coat condition
Good or excellent trailer
good instruments and radio

Damage history - not too concerned provided it was well repaired and
weight and ballance is not adversely affected


Ian

nimbusgb wrote:
> Which of the popular 1st generation club class ships now freely
> available on the market represents the best buy at the moment with the
> following in mind.?
>
> 1 - I may want to fly club class competition
> 2 - It will get passed on to my youngsters
> 3 - in the UK so it will have to go through EASA garbage.
>
>
> There are a handfull of Cirrus, ASW 15's and Libelles around.
>
> My priority list is something like
>
> Easy to rig
> gel coat condition
> Good or excellent trailer
> good instruments and radio
>
> Damage history - not too concerned provided it was well repaired and
> weight and ballance is not adversely affected
>
I'm biased, but of your list I'd say the Libelle 201 hits the spot,
especially if its been refinished in PU - mine was refinished in 1984
and still looks immaculate. Here's my take on the three you mention:

- Std Cirrus carries a price premium because they're perceived to have
the best Club Class handicap. I haven't flown one, but I have sat in
a Cirrus 75/16.6 and thought the wide turtle back and seat position
restricted rear vision. Huge amounts of room in the cockpit, though
If you don't like the all-flying tail, look at the Cirrus 75, which
has a conventional elevator.

- ASW15's look great and apparently go well but they do need the annual
spar rot inspection. A Danish friend with a share in one says their
offset belly hook causes weaving on both winch and aero-tow launches
and that a crosswind from the right is bad news. His has only a belly
hook: they're planning to fit a nose hook since its mainly aero-towed.

- The Libelle's only drawbacks are the snug cockpit, a tendency for
aileron stall when thermaling at 45 kts in a 45 degree bank and, more
serious, a tendency to snap-rotate on a winch launch unless you have
full forward trim plus a bit of forward stick pressure. Against that,
it is really easy to rig and there IS enough space in the panel. See
http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/panel.html and look at the
second picture to see what I've managed to cram in. The GPS stalk
grows from a blanked 80mm hole, so I should be able to get a
transponder in with a lot of jiggling or a replacement panel
structure.

Have you considered an Astir or a Jantar? Both seem to be a lot cheaper
than any of the Big Three. I've flown a Club Astir on a ridge and
thought it was pleasant and easy to fly, with good brakes.

Of course your other points apply to individual gliders, so I'd just add
that I'm a total SDI C4 fan and I'm also very pleased with the Borgelt
B.40 that's peering over my GPS - if you're offered a second hand one,
grab it. Mine had a power switch problem but Mike did a full overhaul
fast and at a reasonable price. There's a 9v battery strapped on its
rear, so it will still get you home if the main battery dies. Tasman
V1000s are also nice: I've flown with one and found it easy to read,
quick responding and it made nice noises. The price is good too.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jan 11, 11:16*am, nimbusgb > wrote:
> Which of the popular 1st generation club class ships now freely
> available on the market represents the best buy at the moment with the
> following in mind.?
>
> 1 - I may want to fly club class competition
> 2 - It will get passed on to my youngsters
> 3 - in the UK so it will have to go through EASA garbage.
>
> There are a handfull of Cirrus, ASW 15's and Libelles around.
>
> My priority list is something like
>
> Easy to rig
> gel coat condition
> Good or excellent trailer
> good instruments and radio
>
> Damage history - not too concerned provided it was well repaired and
> weight and ballance is not adversely affected
>
> Ian

Ls4a - no discussion!
...and what has brought on this return to the fold?

OK - My 2c worth.

Have only flown a Std Cirrus in the above list, but have flown with/competed
with the others.

For what it is worth the Std Cirrus has very nice handling I love the light
controls and responsiveness but it does need constant attention with the all
flying tailplane. Roll rate is relatively the weakest control. Early models with
the low washout wings are prone to tip stalling and will drop a wing reasonably
easily. Can make landing a little hot in some circumstances.

The ASW15 is not as nice a glider from what I have seen. Less cockpit space,
offset hook, all moving elevator with a design that almost guarantees play. That
said I regularly get beaten by one, so it is not uncompetitive. The ASW15 driver
thinks it is a wonderful glider...

The Libelle is too light for our South African conditions - lovely handling by
all accounts and climbs like a homesick angel, but can't keep up in the fast
flying. I can get away from a H301 (flapped) libelle most days.

Have flown with the Single Astir and Speed Astir - the latter is good
competition for the Cirrus, but it has flaps, so the handicap is against it.
Rigging any Grob is a mission in my experience. Most recent example - I landed
out in the same field as a Speed Astir - We had the Cirrus in the trailer with
half the crew, in less time.

So in terms of which one -
They all have around 1:36-37.
The have similar performance envelopes. (Vne - Stall etc)

The Std Cirrus is enormously strong (don't ask how I know) and I fully expect to
pass #57 on with many years of use still available.
The Libelle is by comparison the most fragile, and the Balsa cores in the ASW15
are cause for concern in wet climates - hence the inspection requirement.
The Grobs are built to last - very robust and very docile.

Why no mention of the LS1 on your list?

BUT - the club class has opened up to some much more desirable models:

ASW20 - most bang for the money glider as far as I can see.
Discus
LS4
DG300

Don't disregard them.
Personal experience is that the trailer and ancillary equipment is very
important to your enjoyment and the kind of use you will put the glider to. If
you dread retrieves because of the hassle factor you will not do much
interesting flying, or tend to be over conservative in contests. This is a far
bigger factor than the last couple of L/D points - the handicaps largely work.

Similarly - if the instruments are lousy the flying will be likewise.

Cheers
Bruce

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> nimbusgb wrote:
>> Which of the popular 1st generation club class ships now freely
>> available on the market represents the best buy at the moment with the
>> following in mind.?
>>
>> 1 - I may want to fly club class competition
>> 2 - It will get passed on to my youngsters
>> 3 - in the UK so it will have to go through EASA garbage.
>>
>>
>> There are a handfull of Cirrus, ASW 15's and Libelles around.
>>
>> My priority list is something like
>>
>> Easy to rig
>> gel coat condition
>> Good or excellent trailer
>> good instruments and radio
>>
>> Damage history - not too concerned provided it was well repaired and
>> weight and ballance is not adversely affected
>>
> I'm biased, but of your list I'd say the Libelle 201 hits the spot,
> especially if its been refinished in PU - mine was refinished in 1984
> and still looks immaculate. Here's my take on the three you mention:
>
> - Std Cirrus carries a price premium because they're perceived to have
> the best Club Class handicap. I haven't flown one, but I have sat in
> a Cirrus 75/16.6 and thought the wide turtle back and seat position
> restricted rear vision. Huge amounts of room in the cockpit, though
> If you don't like the all-flying tail, look at the Cirrus 75, which
> has a conventional elevator.
>
> - ASW15's look great and apparently go well but they do need the annual
> spar rot inspection. A Danish friend with a share in one says their
> offset belly hook causes weaving on both winch and aero-tow launches
> and that a crosswind from the right is bad news. His has only a belly
> hook: they're planning to fit a nose hook since its mainly aero-towed.
>
> - The Libelle's only drawbacks are the snug cockpit, a tendency for
> aileron stall when thermaling at 45 kts in a 45 degree bank and, more
> serious, a tendency to snap-rotate on a winch launch unless you have
> full forward trim plus a bit of forward stick pressure. Against that,
> it is really easy to rig and there IS enough space in the panel. See
> http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/panel.html and look at the
> second picture to see what I've managed to cram in. The GPS stalk
> grows from a blanked 80mm hole, so I should be able to get a
> transponder in with a lot of jiggling or a replacement panel
> structure.
>
> Have you considered an Astir or a Jantar? Both seem to be a lot cheaper
> than any of the Big Three. I've flown a Club Astir on a ridge and
> thought it was pleasant and easy to fly, with good brakes.
>
> Of course your other points apply to individual gliders, so I'd just add
> that I'm a total SDI C4 fan and I'm also very pleased with the Borgelt
> B.40 that's peering over my GPS - if you're offered a second hand one,
> grab it. Mine had a power switch problem but Mike did a full overhaul
> fast and at a reasonable price. There's a 9v battery strapped on its
> rear, so it will still get you home if the main battery dies. Tasman
> V1000s are also nice: I've flown with one and found it easy to read,
> quick responding and it made nice noises. The price is good too.
>
>

There are a couple of LS1-d's about and I am considering those as
well. I have previously owned both an LS1 and a Libelle so I am aware
of their merits. The reaon I have discounted the LS4's and ASW 20's is
their current prices. They are running at 60% more than the others.

As to returning to the fold.... sailing just cant hack it! On a good
UK summers day I long to be airborne and the Alps and Pyrenees are
calling again!

Currently its between a Cirrus with superb instrumentation and good
trailer, Libelle, very good price and LS1 with good trailer but iffy
instrumentation.

Hi Ian

Glad to hear you are coming back from the dark side...

I happen to know of a 50% ownership (90% use - because the other partner plays
with his other toys) share in a mint LS8 that would meet your requirements.

Otherwise I would go with the Cirrus + good instruments. It has the advantage of
a really good community, and if it is sorted out already you can get flying
immediately.

Cheers
Bruce

nimbusgb wrote:
> There are a couple of LS1-d's about and I am considering those as
> well. I have previously owned both an LS1 and a Libelle so I am aware
> of their merits. The reaon I have discounted the LS4's and ASW 20's is
> their current prices. They are running at 60% more than the others.
>
> As to returning to the fold.... sailing just cant hack it! On a good
> UK summers day I long to be airborne and the Alps and Pyrenees are
> calling again!
>
> Currently its between a Cirrus with superb instrumentation and good
> trailer, Libelle, very good price and LS1 with good trailer but iffy
> instrumentation.
>

On Jan 12, 5:53*am, nimbusgb > wrote:
> There are a couple of LS1-d's about and I am considering those as
> well. I have previously owned both an LS1 and a Libelle so I am aware
> of their merits. The reaon I have discounted the LS4's and ASW 20's is
> their current prices. They are running at 60% more than the others.
>
> As to returning to the fold.... sailing just cant hack it! On a good
> UK summers day I long to be airborne and the Alps and Pyrenees are
> calling again!
>
> Currently its between a Cirrus with superb instrumentation and good
> trailer, Libelle, very good price and LS1 with good trailer but iffy
> instrumentation.

Yawellnofine, then it has to be the Std. Cirrus, Ian. and maybe get
the Jonker boys to put some of their winglets on as well.